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Transcript

JUST DO IT! - John Ward's Empowering Tips for Comics Creators on Substack

The Substack Comic Experiment: What Works?

Audio version -

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John Ward’s substack:


Transcript:
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Yeah.

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Thanks for taking a bit of time to have a chit-chat with me.

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No calm.

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Comics on Substack.

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I've been thinking about comics on Substack,

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and my direction of thinking about this,

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and I can't help it,

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is I always think about the form.

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So, like, what works, what doesn't work, and what reads well, and how do you...

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Like the creative side, I guess.

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I'm sure you do that too,

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but there's also a whole...

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Not a business side,

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but maybe a distribution side or something like that.

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How do you grow a comic or make money from it?

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That's not like a...

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I don't have a natural tendency to be thinking about that.

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I'm thinking about story possibilities and what would be the best way to tell a

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story in a comic on Substack.

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So I figured I'd ask you to help me think about that,

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kind of be more holistic about how we think about comics on Substack.

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The whole comics on Substack, the way it started...

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Wasn't there like a few years ago where Substack was saying,

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like,

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we'll pay a whole bunch of comic people to come here and they were offering benefits?

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Do you remember that?

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Yeah, it was part of the Substack Pro, I think they called it.

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They recruited a bunch of professional comic writers and artists to create comics

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on Substack for a year.

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Unfortunately, no one really did that.

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You have three worlds and three moons.

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They did.

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Um...

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But pretty much everyone was doing classes on how to make comics.

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Scott Snyder, he still has a class.

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He teaches on it.

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And it's a good class.

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But you had Brian Michael Bendis and a bunch of people doing classes.

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No one was actually distributing comics through the email newsletter other than

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three worlds and three moons.

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And there was like one other group that I know I didn't subscribe to everybody,

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but the ones I subscribed to,

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it wasn't very many of them that were doing that.

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Um,

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And a lot of them have moved on since then.

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A few are still around, still publishing their newsletters.

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But I think that there is an opportunity for people to distribute comics through

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email newsletters.

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And it's funny you ask me about this because I'm not the best exemplar of this.

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I haven't published comics, but I do think about it a lot.

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My hesitation in doing it is,

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I want to be able to be sure that I'm able to keep up a regular routine because I

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don't want to start and leave people hanging.

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But if I ever do start publishing,

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then you'll know that I have a backlog and it'll be safe to follow me.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, that's okay.

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Well, that's already, you know, you've thought about it more than I have in that sense.

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I have thought about it.

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Like what you said,

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if it's on Substack,

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it feels like there's an expectation for there to be more of them,

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like more frequently.

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Yeah,

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because I just don't see...

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I might be wrong,

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but I just don't see people subscribing to a newsletter and just following the monthly...

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schedule that you would get from the american direct market yeah i can understand

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that point of view um i think that you have to consider that Substack is a different

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medium it's not like you're going to a store and buying a book um there are ways to

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lean into that but they bring a bunch of problems with it um because like

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The people I see who do actual art and tell stories through Substack are people who

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write like visual memoirs.

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They're doing like a comic book memoir.

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Not even a comic book.

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It's, I don't know, they're painting pictures and writing words on top.

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But it's not like word balloons.

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It's their thoughts.

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Single panel kind of thing.

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No, I wish I could remember her name.

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There's a woman who does this,

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and she's written several really beautiful,

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they're like watercolor.

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But she does like webcomics,

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I mean webtoons,

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where it's vertical scroll,

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and as you're reading,

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you progress through the story without having to think,

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oh,

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this is the next page.

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I'm going to start the top panel.

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Yeah.

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which it does make for great reading on Substack as you're reading it through your

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email and you're scrolling or on your phone.

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It's even better.

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Um,

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obviously,

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and you know,

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this,

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the problem with that is if you decide that you want to print it out,

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then you have to reformat the entire thing and you might have to do entirely redo

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several panels to make that work.

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Um,

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But as I've thought about comics on Saturday,

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I think there's a great opportunity here because there aren't a lot of comic book

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people here.

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growing number of web comics which i would lump in with us but um people who are

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making actual like comic book type stories not a lot so you you don't have a lot of

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competition um compare that with patreon where you have tons of people and it's

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more difficult to stand out um i think that

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There may be a business model where you make your focus on building a fan base on Substack.

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And you try to acquaint a bunch of people with your work by distributing it here,

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posting about it on notes.

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And it doesn't have to be a comic book or comic every time you post.

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You can do sketches or whatever or just write about what you're doing.

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But I do think that you want to give people a complete story when you post.

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And if you can't do that,

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then break up a page into,

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you know,

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like two posts per page,

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you know,

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where you cut it in half or something.

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Or spread it out throughout the week where you're doing a few panels.

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But you still want to deliver that this feels like a resolved storyline because

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leaving people hanging,

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it doesn't make for a good reading experience,

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I don't think.

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But you use Substack as your newsletter as a way of building up that fan base and

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staying in touch with them with the goal of eventually doing a Kickstarter for your

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print run and hopefully that's how you monetize it.

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I do think that there are opportunities where you could charge people on Substack,

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but I kind of want to say you want to keep the price low,

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as low as you can,

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$30,

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$50 a year,

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whatever the base price is.

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Because your goal with Substack is to build a crowd,

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and you want the barrier to entry to be low.

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I think that you should give people your comic for free, or at least most of it for free.

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Your paid tiers become like your superfans.

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These are people that you're sending like

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digital prints or a digital file that they can print out for as a poster or whatever.

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Maybe even do like a founder tier where you're going to send them like a sketchbook

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that you print off in your home printer or take to Kinko's or somewhere and have it printed.

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And you need to price accordingly to that because you don't want to be putting

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yourself on hold doing something like that but There are opportunities here for

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someone who's willing to think through how to structure it and how to make it make

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sense and be appealing to the reader so many times I see people who try to

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they're trying to think of how to build a paid subscriber list and everything

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they're coming up with appeals to other writers or appeals to artists and stuff.

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They're not thinking about the end user experience, the reader experience.

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So you have to put yourself in that mindset when you're thinking about things like that.

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Hmm.

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What do you think of the idea of doing a panel every day

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Because you were talking about having to reformat everything,

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but I think there's a way to avoid that.

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You would just have to be disciplined and stick to the same panel layout to your

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comic book that ends up being printed,

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right?

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so like watchmen is nine panel grid all the way through pretty much right there are

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certain things you can't do like you can't split up a scene over several panels

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that dave gibbons did but as long as each panel has its own thing there's a guy uh

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doing that he's he does a i think an

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eight or 12 panel thing.

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Yeah, he does a 12 panel strip every week.

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L.E.

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Mullen.

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His strip is Flight of the Condor.

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He's a guy from Uruguay.

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And what he does is every week he publishes three panels.

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by the end of the week you get your 12 panels and then he publishes the full strip

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and at that experiment i thought was interesting it's like why wouldn't you you

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know charge why wouldn't you do a panel every day because most comic artists are

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going to be able to do five panels a week right and by the end of the month you've

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got several pages right

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because then you're kind of feeding into that attention span,

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like,

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okay,

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give me something,

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give me something.

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But the trick, of course, is panel every day is not a story.

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So I'm just trying to think about how you get people kind of...

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Because when you go to a shop,

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you're expecting these are the comics for this month and you're kind of used to

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that's the way that they are,

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or you get a trade paperback or whatever.

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But when people go on the internet,

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if there's not something today,

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I kind of feel like maybe you're losing them.

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I might be thinking about it wrong, but that's kind of like what I'm thinking.

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How do you keep giving them something?

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Well, okay.

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If this guy's having success with that, then obviously his results prove that it works.

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For me, just thinking about it, and I haven't seen his comics, so I don't know.

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But if you think about,

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okay,

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panel one,

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your hero jumps into the room and you're establishing where he's at,

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what he looks like.

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That's your panel.

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That's all the reader gets.

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The next day, you show the villain that he's about to face off against.

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The next day, maybe somebody throws a punch.

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That's a lot of waiting or not a lot of story.

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Messes up the pacing.

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Yeah.

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And the other thing about having such a fixed format is that

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whenever you go to print it, how's that going to read?

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Because,

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I mean,

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yeah,

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they pulled it off with Watchmen,

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but we're not all Dave Gibbons and Alan Moore.

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So I'm not confident that I could pull that off as well as they did.

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Fair enough.

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But I think that maybe like

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if you take like a half page,

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you know,

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say you're,

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you got like five panels or four panels,

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say a half page,

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um,

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that's enough to give somebody a little bit of information and end with some type

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of cliffhanger.

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And then the next day you pay off that cliffhanger and hopefully set up the next one.

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Um,

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how that would read over the course of 22 pages in a book, you know, up, down, up, done.

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I'm not sure how well that would read.

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That's why I kind of think you want to do a completed story.

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One thing that actually I,

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I have started talking to a guy about doing a comic as an experiment,

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but what we're going to do is an eight page comic.

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so that's small enough to where you can actually complete it you know a decent

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amount of time um i you know could you do an eight page comic every week it depends

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on the page layout but it's possible um and if you gave yourself a little breathing

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room you might be able to pull it off um but that that might be an idea or even you

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know a four page comic

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you're not telling the greatest stories in the world.

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But if you look at like the old creepy magazines and,

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you know,

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all the horror magazines from that time,

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they were all little short stories or even modern,

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you know,

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ECs.

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That revival that they have going on were tales from the

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epitaphs from the abyss and stuff like that those are all little short stories put

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together in an anthology comic

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So yeah,

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if your goal is to write some superhero story about a specific character,

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you're not going to be making the next Spider-Man.

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But maybe you could tell four pages story about that character and then another

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four page story until you fill up a book.

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There are ways to do that so that it actually makes sense for the reader.

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So it's not...

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So it's presented as a cohesive whole,

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um,

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instead of a bunch of disjointed stories,

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you know,

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you could set it up that way.

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And basically anytime you have a narrator where they're telling the stories from

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this person's life,

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you've just now created a cohesive glue.

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That's going to stick it all together and make it make sense.

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Hmm.

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yeah yeah it just it really does feel like uh publishing to this platform it has

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demands on the form

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It can't just make a comic.

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I'm just going ahead and making my printed comic because I want to,

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and I'm still new at it,

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so I'm just not overthinking it.

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The thing is with panels that are larger than on the phone, the big panels don't have an effect.

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It's a pinch and squeeze, and it just doesn't make any sense to do that.

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I do wonder why, though...

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certain genre of comics seems to be kind of clicking on substack like you said the

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the memoir thing or i've seen those comics they're more like a um slice of life

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maybe you would call yeah i wonder what what it is about honestly you want to know

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what i think it is is they're actually doing it

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Instead of being like us right now,

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where we're just sitting around,

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well,

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you know,

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maybe this would work.

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Maybe that would work.

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Oh, well, here's the problem with that.

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You know, they're doing it and they're, they're trying stuff.

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They're seeing, oh, that worked.

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Oh, that failed miserably.

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And, oh, this, this is, this is clicking over here.

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And they're using that information to improve their delivery and it's resonating

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with their readers.

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So,

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and the thing I think too,

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that,

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you know,

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comic book artists and creators specifically,

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the thing that we all get hung up on is the idea that I've got to make this for print.

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I need to have a print book so I can do Kickstarter or whatever.

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And those guys aren't doing that.

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They're just saying, hey, here's my comic.

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I'm making it so it works best on Substack.

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Enjoy it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I don't see how publishing it on Substack would stop you from printing it later.

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I mean,

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you can...

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It's just the formatting stuff,

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you know,

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because we all think about,

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you know,

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like the way traditional floppies are printed and how they're designed and laid out

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and all that,

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and doing the two-page spread and the page turns and all that.

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You can't do that on Substack.

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Yeah.

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And so... Yeah.

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It does sort of...

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point to how deficient we are in North America on the website, the American comics market.

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We just have not been on top of this

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adaptation to web, at least in the circles that I've run.

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But have they done anything different in Asia?

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I mean, if you look at Webtoons and those things, it's all optimized for vertical scrolls.

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They're not doing page flips and that stuff.

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yeah that's what i mean like they they've they've abandoned the whole idea oh i see

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what you're saying yeah it has to be a print thing that you because we've kind of

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gone the other way right like with if you're marvel unlimited or whatever it's just

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we made a comment for print and we're putting it on this screen if you want it

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here's 10 bucks a month or whatever and like no no really thought put into it see

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but i think that

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that could be the very opportunity.

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The thing that really makes somebody stand out is somebody who's willing to give up

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that idea of I'm going to print this one day,

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make it,

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this is purely digital.

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It's on sub stack.

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If you want to read it, that's where you go.

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Um,

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you throw me a few dollars a month or whatever,

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and you get all the access you want,

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but you know,

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leaning into that and cause you know,

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There's so much... It's the Wild West.

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You can do anything you want.

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You can try stuff.

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Throw it against the wall, see if it sticks.

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And if it doesn't, try something else.

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And there's a lot of opportunity there.

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And we're early.

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I mean,

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like I was saying earlier,

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this isn't like Patreon,

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where you're competing against a thousand other comic book creators.

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You're competing against, what, 60?

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100, maybe?

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I don't...

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I don't know.

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I mean,

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Substack,

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it's hard to quantify these things because so much of your visibility is determined

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by who you subscribe to and who you're following and stuff like that.

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And so I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that I've never met.

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And there may be entirely new comic book ecosystems out there that we haven't

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stumbled into yet.

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But they are getting better at recommending stuff,

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saying,

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hey,

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you might like to follow this person or showing you posts from people who share

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your interests.

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So I don't think that we're talking about thousands of people here.

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I think we're talking about tens of people, maybe hundreds at the most.

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Yeah.

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Yeah,

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and hopefully they do kind of get on top of the,

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what do you call it,

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the tabs or something?

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Like the topic?

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Categories, yeah.

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Most of what's in the comics tab has got nothing to do with comics.

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Hopefully with time they kind of refine that.

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Yeah, that's good.

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You're convincing me, really, to just put on Substack what I already have.

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I mean, I like it.

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I think it's cool.

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I think what's coming up is even cooler.

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So I may as well just put it out there and see what happens.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And later, if I want to print it out, I'll print it out.

(00:22:25):

Yeah, like you say, the super fans who want to print copy, they can get a print copy.

(00:22:32):

Yeah.

(00:22:33):

Yeah,

(00:22:33):

the model I've been doing so far is publishing the process of making the comic,

(00:22:38):

and that gives me something every week

(00:22:41):

to give to people and people seem to like it you know i i put it to ambient music

(00:22:47):

and it's relaxing and i i do a voiceover to kind of give people an idea of the

(00:22:53):

creative process behind like making a drawing or whatever it's like i'm no master

(00:22:58):

at drawing or anything but

(00:23:00):

i am i'm better at drawing than someone who can't draw so it is interesting to them

(00:23:06):

right so that that's what i've been doing but i think i can continue doing that and

(00:23:12):

then at the end of x amount of time just publish here's what i've been working on

(00:23:17):

you've been following along here here it is kind of kind of thing

(00:23:22):

Yeah.

(00:23:24):

I mean, what do you have to lose?

(00:23:28):

It's not like you're going to ruin your career if you do something like that.

(00:23:35):

There's no comic career to ruin, really.

(00:23:37):

Yeah.

(00:23:40):

I'm just a guy.

(00:23:41):

That's smart.

(00:23:46):

So, we've got a few minutes left.

(00:23:50):

What comics have you been reading that you really like, that you think people should check out?

(00:23:55):

They don't have to be Substack comics, just comics.

(00:23:59):

I read a lot of horror comics.

(00:24:04):

Actually, let me look at my thing here.

(00:24:11):

I mostly read...

(00:24:14):

digital comics, because I got tired of trying to find new places to store things.

(00:24:20):

Fair enough.

(00:24:20):

Let's say I just finished The Ultimate Spider-Man, where he's a middle-aged guy.

(00:24:27):

I read EC's Cruel Kingdom, Tales from the Abyss.

(00:24:35):

Cruel Universe.

(00:24:36):

Cruel Universe is called.

(00:24:38):

Yeah, they have another one.

(00:24:40):

Oh, they do?

(00:24:41):

Yeah.

(00:24:42):

Yeah.

(00:24:43):

Cruel Universe was their sci-fi.

(00:24:44):

They recently switched it on fantasy.

(00:24:47):

Horror.

(00:24:49):

But I've got just a bunch of books.

(00:24:56):

Yeah.

(00:24:58):

Nice.

(00:25:00):

Is that an iPad?

(00:25:04):

Yeah.

(00:25:05):

Nice.

(00:25:08):

But

(00:25:11):

There's a lot, I read a lot that way.

(00:25:14):

Yeah.

(00:25:15):

And I don't, I've kind of moved away from horror, from superhero books.

(00:25:23):

Every now and then I'll read a new one,

(00:25:25):

but a lot of times it just feels like the same stories I've read,

(00:25:29):

you know,

(00:25:30):

decades earlier.

(00:25:31):

And so that's why I switched to like horror comics because at least it feels new.

(00:25:36):

Yeah.

(00:25:38):

Yeah.

(00:25:39):

Fresh.

(00:25:41):

There's something that occurred to me.

(00:25:46):

What do you think are the... Because Diamond has declared the bankruptcy there.

(00:25:53):

Yeah.

(00:25:56):

What do you think of the idea of Substack taking over distribution for Diamond?

(00:26:03):

It's a pretty wild idea, I know, but...

(00:26:07):

yeah I mean they'd have to get into shipping and storage and it's not there it'd be

(00:26:12):

a nightmare yeah it's not their business at all yeah yeah but there is an

(00:26:17):

opportunity for an enterprising uh entity there to kind of do something with that

(00:26:25):

there's an opportunity there and it may even be an opportunity to make money but

(00:26:29):

you're gonna have to be very disciplined I mean Diamond had

(00:26:33):

up until recently they had a monopoly um and then marvel started going with penguin

(00:26:40):

ram random house in dc and went with luna um and that's the thing that they're

(00:26:47):

suffering from now is because they no longer have the monopoly so i mean you'd have

(00:26:51):

to be really disciplined with your money and um salaries and all that but

(00:26:58):

Someone might be able to make it work.

(00:27:02):

I am concerned about the long-term implications of being dependent on...

(00:27:12):

local comic book shops because you know I'm old enough to remember spinner racks in

(00:27:19):

grocery stores and gas stations and stuff like that and the first comic book I ever

(00:27:25):

got my grandma brought for me at a grocery store and

(00:27:31):

and so but they were places where kids would naturally be and they would bump into

(00:27:38):

comics and see it and want it and ask their parents for it or get their own money

(00:27:43):

and buy it and they no longer have that way now they have to someone has to take

(00:27:49):

them a lot of times out of the way to somewhere

(00:27:56):

you know, wherever the comic book shop is.

(00:27:59):

And,

(00:27:59):

um,

(00:28:00):

so they don't have that natural organic encounter with comic books the way they

(00:28:04):

used to.

(00:28:05):

No funnel.

(00:28:07):

Farming?

(00:28:08):

There's no funnel.

(00:28:10):

Yeah.

(00:28:11):

Just take them from all over and then funnel them into the distribution system.

(00:28:20):

Yeah.

(00:28:20):

The closest place that a lot of people have is somewhere like Barnes & Noble.

(00:28:26):

But even that, how many parents are taking their kids to those stores?

(00:28:30):

Yeah.

(00:28:33):

yeah the the newsstand is the internet now yeah so it's uh digital is definitely it

(00:28:41):

that's the way to go with uh with printed being kind of uh an ancillary product of

(00:28:48):

the digital thing uh that's that's the way i see it and and with diamond now

(00:28:57):

possibly out of the picture i think small press is gonna hurt pretty bad so it's it

(00:29:04):

this might be a big shift uh towards towards this might be the kick in the pants

(00:29:08):

that we needed to fix this digital thing yeah you never know yeah

(00:29:17):

Well, John, thank you very much for your time and your insight and your wisdom.

(00:29:22):

I appreciate that so much.

(00:29:25):

Thanks for having me on.

(00:29:26):

I saw you interviewed the Brothers Krenn.

(00:29:29):

I'm looking forward to watching that.

(00:29:30):

Yeah,

(00:29:31):

it will have come before you here,

(00:29:36):

but yeah,

(00:29:37):

maybe one week before or two weeks before,

(00:29:40):

something like that.

(00:29:41):

But yeah, it's a good one.

(00:29:44):

It's a good one, yeah.

(00:29:46):

Okay, I'm going to stop recording.